Aaron Franks (AF): What is this space in the Intensive allowing artists and allies to do that had not been available or possible before? Maybe in general and also specifically in relationship to reconciliation.
Ashok Mathur (AM): Ok, earlier you mentioned privilege, which is a very important thing to think about in academia. And I come back to [Gayatri] Spivak always, this notion she has of unlearning privilege; unlearning privilege is your loss she says. And I reflected on this, thinking it is in many ways unearned privileges. Some of them are earned, but some of them…the accident of being in a certain position has a history, has a lot of history.
What do we do about changing the system, what do we do that may take our various privileges, which can be really safe, and develop a level of precarity so that you may be on a different precipice, you may be losing something, you may be challenging the system in a certain way. Enough so that you maintain the trajectory of what we need to do, but not at the expense of all, of protecting yourself, right?
That means how do we create safe environments for grad students, for learners, for non-registered students too, that allows them to go to the places that they need to go, that challenges them to go to those places? In one of our grad classes we talked about the heart; we talked about the love that exists in the spaces between people but is not spoken because we have to stick to the outline. So, how do we move into those spaces?
I would say we are trying to inculcate the emotive, the affective, the spiritual, the care, the passion, as much as the—say—the material-based practice, or [worrying about] ‘what is there to learn’, ‘what’s the argument to learn?’
So I think some of that is going on here. That’s why it should be and needs to be a bit risky. It means taking chances and fighting the good fight. I think you’ve go to do that, to be willing to put ourselves a bit on the line, you know? So, I don’t know what that means yet, and I don’t know what that will mean. In some ways it’s talking yourself out of a position. That type of thing sometimes lets you move into a space.
AF: And letting other people talk you out of the position?
AM: Yeah. One of the things I am leaning toward is moving into a part-time position. By doing so we can afford to hire an Associate Professor, an Indigenous Associate Professor, and that could be a very interesting thing, because it can change the dynamics that are otherwise static. That’s a tangential way of looking at your question. That’s not [the] specifics of those artists [in attendance], or what they are bringing in, but it does develop a sense of community.
We pour in, we’re living together, like literally in these pods and cooking together and that sort of thing, and there’s a communal quality to it that goes beyond meeting once a week and that type of thing.
AF: Ayumi [Goto] said something yesterday relevant to this, which is that it’s about transformation of hearts and people’s politics and not about momentary strategic alliances. That was a long-term goal she was talking about. And also the willingness to leave, when you start to feel you’re indispensable that’s the time when you need to go. And that’s interesting that you talk about three generations here, the fourth going on…Stephen [Foster], Mike Evans, and yourself, [research assistants] Tomas and Karolina now, attached but not possessive.
AM: And I think that question is—to Karolina, Tomas and to others—is where do you see the entry points there? Because it’s not traditional, it’s not ‘you got your Master’s, off you go and do that PhD in this particular way.’
What risks are you taking with you, what challenges are you taking with you? [Karolina and Tomas] have both worked within those various radicalized communities, arts or feminist theory, working through those questions. But then how do you take it forward?
Because as grad students we’re always, we’re always in a state of saying I should quit, right? There’s a choice to go forward or quit and often its quit because I’m not as good as anyone else. How do you develop that experience though so that it becomes a mutually supportive space?
SF: That’s why you have the undergrads mixing with the grad students, mixing with the professional artists…I think there’s a real practical component when you bring all these artists and scholars together that’s not just about the academy. It’s about the scholarship itself.